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5. Wriging
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Wow!

WOW! That's ridiculous. You don't need rules to be faithful to your wife! Just decide to be faithful (isn't that what you did when you gave your wedding vows?) Temptation is irrelevant, you are in charge of your own decisions, and the consequences thereof.

Want to know why I'm faithful to my wife? Because I love her, she deserves my devotion. There shouldn't be any other rule or requirement necessary.

I would go so far as to say that men that need these kinds of rules and reminders should never have gotten married in the first place.

It strikes me that some of these rules are not only about avoiding temptation but also about avoiding situations that can be misconstrued.

But overall, yes, they seem antiquated.

Antiquated or not, concerning elders of churches, Paul teaches that they must be blameless and that they must even have a good reputation among those who are without the church. While I disagree that coming up with sets of rules such as this is the best way to go about it, the ideas behind them would help in keeping one blameless and of a good report.

When in a public-facing position I can see why number four is relevant. It'd be extremely hypocritical if a couple outwardly displayed issues. Sometimes things are temporary and it'd be a shame for something to be made public and then blown out of proportion (leading to more of a mess). That's what happens with public figures. So, a bit of image control is certainly necessary.

Sometimes, though, things just need work and will blow over...

This kinda reminded me of ScrivsTyme, haha.

Devin, so if the pastor in question is having problems with his wife, it's ok for him to lie about it as long as it's public for his image? I can understand having a level of tact not to bring up problems--especially if they're not relevant to whatever is going on/being spoken about. That's not the same as putting on a facade like #4 seems to imply, though.

I suppose I'm reading it wrong.

I think most of these rules are more to keep from the appearance of impropriety. Sure, my pastor can ride in a car full of women and not sin... I don't doubt that at all. But I'd hate to think of what it could do to our church if people DID think he was up to something. Basically, better safe than sorry... and pastors *are* held to a higher standard of behavior than the rest of us.

Nah, I think you're reading it right, Ozone42. That's how I see it. I guess I'm not saying it's right or wrong, I can simply understand the necessity. The absence of the truth isn't necessarily a lie though I suppose.

If Jesus had followed these rules, He certainly never would have associated with prostitutes and tax collectors - after all, people might have called him a glutton or a winebibber or something...

Jake, I think you just cinched it there.

Church is not supposed to be about bureaucracy, or image. That's precisely what is wrong with most churches. I'm not a christian any longer, but I do at least know that much.

@ JakeDanger: A couple things:

1. "If a man is so weak that he can’t be in a room alone with another woman without being in danger of cheating on his wife, then he needs to work on his marriage and his character..."

I won't put myself in a room, alone, with another woman not because I don't trust myself. I won't do it because I don't trust other people to draw correct conclusions. Rumors start in churches and even if they're squashed they can still ruin a ministry. I know that I won't do anything with a girl in my office with the door shut, but other people see that and begin wondering, "what are they doing in there for so long?" It's just easier to avoid the situation altogether than to even allow for the possibility of misinterpretation.

2. "... not add another 157 rules to his already bulging “rule library”. It’s a perfect example of what Paul spoke of as living under the law, not under grace."

You're misapplying Scripture. Paul was fighting back against the idea that there are rules you need to follow to please God. For that he points out there is only one thing that can please God, complete reliance upon his saving grace made available through Christ. I think Paul would wholeheartedly agree with me in saying that there's a difference between "following rules to achieve salvation" and "making wise choices in life to avoid pitfalls."

Where in Scripture does it say not to stay in a hotel overnight alone, or never to counsel a woman alone or more than once? Are we to let gossips run our lives? Do you think Paul ever stayed in a hotel room alone? Did Jesus counsel Mary Magdalene only once? The Pharisees were brilliant about adding extra rules "just to make sure" - the washing of pitchers and cups, etc. They even had these special sandals without nails on them to use on the Sabbath (because the extra effort required to lift the sandals with nails in them qualifie as "work"). And Jesus deliberately flouted their rules.

The modern church is so incredibly far from its origins that it can't even recognize true Christianity when it sees it...

@ Jakedanger: How many years have you been in the ministry?

In a perfect world you're right, we shouldn't let gossips dictate our behavior. Unfortunately we are all fallen, we all have a sinful nature. We must take steps accordingly.

"And Jesus deliberately flouted their rules." Their rules were set up as a mandate for Salvation. These suggestions are for living and ministering wisely in today's culture, not 2,000 years ago.

@frotzed : I really don't think gossip has changed much in 2000 years. Why is it ok to let it dicate your actions now when it was not back then?

What makes you think it didn't dictate what ministers did then?

It may have, but it didn't dicate what Jesus or his apostles did, and that is the point.

It didn't? I beg to differ:

"If anyone sets his heart on being an overseer,[a] he desires a noble task. 2Now the overseer must be above reproach, the husband of but one wife, temperate, self-controlled, respectable, hospitable, able to teach, 3not given to drunkenness, not violent but gentle, not quarrelsome, not a lover of money. 4He must manage his own family well and see that his children obey him with proper respect. 5(If anyone does not know how to manage his own family, how can he take care of God's church?) 6He must not be a recent convert, or he may become conceited and fall under the same judgment as the devil. 7He must also have a good reputation with outsiders, so that he will not fall into disgrace and into the devil's trap."

Seems Paul (writer of most of the New Testament) had at least something to say about how a leader should behave.

That doesn't speak anything about gossip. It says live a good life, be a good person. I think you're misconstruing "have a good reputation with outsiders," to mean "make it impossible for people to tell lies about you." Obviously that's not possible. If people are the type to start rumors, lie, and gossip, they're going to do it regardless of your actions. I honestly don't have a problem with people trying to avoid situations that people could misunderstand, but by letting maybes and gossips rule you could be drastically reducing not only your effectiveness as a minister, but your credibility. If someone comes to you seeking counsel, do you turn them away because no one else is around to witness it, or only if they're female?

And again, this is a bit off track from the original post where it's advocating putting on a facade--which I view as a lie--if you are having trouble in your home. Yes of course a good leader should have a good life at home, it speaks of his/her character and morals, but if you are NOT having a good life at home, that does not mean it's ok to lie about it. Avoid discussing it... ok, but that still smacks a bit of deceit.

Many have fallen on a path of putting their image as a priority instead of their faith and the word of God.

I see your point. I agree with you that if you're having troubles at home you shouldn't blatantly lie about it. Just don't talk about it at all. I agree with you about that.

But regarding our off topic banter, I have had teen girls come to me for advice. What I do is leave the door open. If what they're going to tell me is too sensitive for others to hear then I usually refer them to my wife or ask if my wife can sit in. Same with guys. Occasionally, if the church is full of people like on a Sunday morning I may shut the door half way but never fully close it.

On one hand I really do see your point, ministers should strive to minister as effectively as possible. But then again, if a church runs you off or worse...someone openly accuses you of improper sexual behavior your reputation can be irreparably damaged. Isn't your ministry then SEVERELY impeded? I'm just trying to make wise choices in my behavior so I'm not burned by it later down the road. I plan on ministering for a lifetime, why would I chance screwing that up so early on in the game? And it can get screwed up early on by one false accusation of sexual abuse. Men are guilty until proven innocent when a teenage girl accuses them of touching them inappropriately.

I do understand, and agree with you. By all means if it's possible, leave the door open, have your wife help. I'm a photographer, and do the same thing, but in my case the girl's well being is never endangered by something I don't do. No one has to have their picture taken, but a lot of people need someone to talk to, and someone to advise.

It was not my intention to make any of my comments directed at you personally, so I apologize if I came off that way. I realize there's plenty of risks involved, especially with youth as well as troublemakers (for lack of a more polite word.) I'm glad you see my point, and I agree, best not to chance screwing up if you can. You'll always have to weigh the risks against how they can limit you.

It's sad that the problem exists in the first place. I hope you never have to encounter it personally!

:D I love it when a conversation turns out well and the two parties begin to see eye to eye. I see what you mean, you see what I mean.

Regarding the original list, that's all I was saying, was that I can see where the writer was coming from, they're just offering up advice for ministers. Ways to avoid screwing up their ministries, weighing the risks against the benefits.

I've heard horror stories of ministers who are caught off guard in situations that could have been avoided. One such instance was of a minister who agreed to counsel a woman alone. She came in, he had her shut the door. All seemed normal until she began to strip off all her clothes and proposition the minister. Granted, the woman was obviously unstable, and granted, that's a freak instance. But it does happen. I'd just as soon avoid the chance altogether rather than be caught in a situation like that.

I do agree though, that intentionally misleading and lying to people about the condition of your marriage is just bad business.

I'm glad we got this issue out into the open - it's one that has been needing discussion. My purpose wasn't to be offensive, but to stimulate an exchange of views that all of use can learn from.

One of the reasons I brought it up as because (as you might have guessed with the attitude I have) I have been accused of everything under the sun - sexual impropriety, mental illness, pedophilia, etc., much of it by other Christians. It greatly distressed me at first, but you get used to it after awhile.

I consider it a good sign because Jesus said that as Christians we would be persecuted. I didn't realize that it meant by other Christians, though! Being persecuted itself means nothing (after all, evil people get persecuted too!); but if I'm not being persecuted by somebody then I wonder what I've been doing wrong. I'm not talking about anyone in this forum - to be disagreed with, even vehemently, doesn't qualify as 'persecution'.

The payoff, however, is that I've learned SO much about gossip and lies and how they work. In my experience:

1. A lie is like a virus - there are people out there, sometimes very holy on the outside, that live a lie and collect them to use as ammunition aganst others. One time in particular I was lied about and instead of trying to hide the false accusation, I told everyone I knew about it (assuring them it was a lie, of course). My purpose was to find out what these people would do with that information. I found out to my dismay that SO many people will just file it away and then throw it back out at you (in distorted form) whenever it becomes convenient for them. Even family and friends in many cases...To mix metaphors, a lie is like a football that gets passed on from liar to liar. It really showed me who was who among my closest associates - it was like a looking-glass into their souls.

2. A lie is like a fungus - it thrives in the darkness, and dies in the light. I was recently living in a teacher's dormitory on the campus of a Chinese university. There were about 100 western teachers living in the same dorm, and one of them (a Christian) spread the rumor that he smelled marijuana smoke coming out of my room. When I heard about it, I went down to the public whiteboard and wrote in big letters, "This is Jake Danger. In case anyone was wondering, I do not smoke dope. Thank you."

People were quite amused of course, but in the coming days I could tell from their reaction that the lie was no longer believed by anyone. I had robbed it of all its power. And the perpetrator was totally discredited even though I never mentioned his name. Hopefully he will think twice before trying anything like that again.

3. "When you point your finger at someone else, you're pointing four fingers at yourself" (actually three!). That's common mother-speak, but I had always understood it as meaning "If you point your finger at someone else, you are condemning yourself because you shouldn't go around accusing other people even if the accusation is true." But from my experience I now understand it to mean, "You can tell a person's secret sins by listening to what he falsely accuses others of, because
guilty people use false accusations to hide their own shortcomings."
People who falsely accuse you are usually more guilty themselves of whatever they're accusing you of.

4. A person justly accused will usually either go on the defensive and try to hide, and if that doesn't work, frantically make false accusations against others. A person unjustly accused will often go on the offensive, not to accuse others, but to publicize the accusation against him and publicly proclaim his/her innocence.

5. A lie is like a schoolyard bully: If you run from it, it will chase you down and beat you up. But if you stand up to it, it will cower at your feet. If you are falsely acused and have the courage to make an issue of it yourself, the truth comes out in the end, you are exonerated, and the perpetrator is disgraced in the eyes of all honest people (the only ones that matter).

So let me encourage everyone to stand up against lies instead of running from them or hiding from them. Act boldly and faithfully. I have noticed throughout my life that whenever I have run from lies, they have grown stronger, but every single time I have stood up against them, God has stepped in and rescued me (even before I became a Christian!). Gossips have only the power that we give them.

My question is.... Why do you constantly have this problem of "lies about you"? Seems to me that when there's smoke, there's fire. Period - Christian or not.

To imedia: You just perfectly illustrated my point #1 above.

Well, glad I was able to help illustrate your point - but you haven't answered my question.

"...there are people out there, sometimes very holy on the outside, that live a lie and collect them to use as ammunition aganst others. " Does it resemble you? After all, you just insinuated that the allegations against me were true, even though you've never met me and thus have no way of knowing one way or the other. Like I said, a perfect illustration.

Oh, yeah- your question that I'm supposed to answer - was it this one?

"My question is.... Why do you constantly have this problem of "lies about you"? Seems to me that when there's smoke, there's fire. Period - Christian or not. "

Was that a question, or was it an accusation? If it was a question, it seems that you've already answered it yourself. But nevertheless, I will repeat my answer, which was already up before you even asked the question:

“You can tell a person’s secret sins by listening to what he falsely accuses others of, because guilty people use false accusations to hide their own shortcomings.”

Jakedanger.....

you make a lot of noise and from my view you talk in circles. Honestly, I don't give a rip if the accusations are true, false or somewhere in between - however you seem to be rather hung up on them.

As for the crack about it being a question or an accusation - again, from my view it's like you've got a chip on your shoulder and you're trying to avoid the question or you're trying to skew the question so you can make some larger point - all to avoid it. You make a lot of assumptions about what I do and don't think - example: "I insinuated" that the allegations about you were true"? I did no such thing. I merely stated that when when allegations like this are made, there is usually some truth to them (when there's smoke there's fire) Tell me where I said I believed them? Trust me - I have absoutley no qualms telling someone what I think - in this instance, I couldn't venture a guess nor would I try. I don't know you from adam. Nor do I know the others involved.

However, I will say I think your argument(s) are a bit disingenious but that's just me. So you've been lied about - who hasn't been? People do that on the net all the time - unfortunately. If the "lies against you" are not true, then you've got a clear conscious and I would assume God would handle the rest - isn't that what Christian teachings say? But hell, what do I know?

...which brings me to my next point (taken straight from the Liar's Playbook, which I secretly smuggled out of the Vatican):

"Rule 1. When making a false accusation - never, NEVER state it directly. Master the art of insinuation (for example, "where there's smoke, there's fire"). This way you maintain Plausible Deniability (originally a CIA concept) while at the same time communicating your accusation to whoever you like.

Rule 2: If the accused calls you on it, simply deny that you ever made an accusation at all. Then turn around and either:

(a) accuse the accused of falsely accusing you (using innuendo again - see 'Plausible Deniability' above), thus turning black into white; and/or

(b) insinuate that the accused is paranoid and thus must have a guilty conscience ("you seem to be awfully hung up on them..."). At that point you're perfectly positioned to resume your "where there's smoke, there's fire" routine (this time, the accused's objections to your false accusation constitutes the "smoke").

Rule 3: When making a false accusation, remember to always keep the focus on the accused, not on your accusation or the (lack of) basis for it.

Rule 4: If all else fails, tell him to "get over it" (thus keeping the focus on the accused by focusing on the accused's reaction rather than the accusation itself), and/or (if he is Christian) appeal to him to "turn the other cheek", and then slap him again.

Rule 5: Last Resort: Insinuate (or come right out and say) that he is arrogant and proud (or 'sermonizing') for daring to stand up to you."

Liars are bully/cowards, and the above exchange is a perfect example of how you handle a bully - stand your ground instead of tiptoeing around, afraid that he might twist something you do or say into yet another false accusation. The Christian church has been counseling cowardice and victimhood for a long time now, and it's high time someone remembered exactly how Jesus handled the Pharisees.

See below for more on this: <a href="http://lunaticwisdom.com/blog3/2006/11/19/the-theology-of-victimhood-dont-fall-for-it/
">The Theology of Victimhood: Don't Fall For It

Thank you for your comments, imedia, you played your part perfectly (but then again, you guys are SO predictable). You're like a frog that I'm dissecting for "Anatomy of a Liar 101".

"Do not participate in the unfruitful works of darkness, but instead expose them." Eph 5:11

Well,

Somebody certainly expended a tremendous amount of energy avoiding a simple question - and has done a fabulous job of twisiting my words and meaning.

Anyway Jake, I don't have anymore time to devote to this little exchange. I sure hope you get that psychiatric help you so desperately need. Glad you think I "played a part" in whatever your grander vision is.

I'll just go on record as saying I don't know how you can come to the conclusions you've arrived at, but if you want to visit me and call me a liar, I'd suggest you purchase health insurance.

Oh, yeah, I forgot...if all else fails, threaten violence. Who is it that needs psychiatric help again?

You forgot huh? Hey, there's nothing wrong with seeking psychiatric help if it's necessary. I wouldn't think any less of you (than I already do) if you sought it.

And I didn't threaten you. This is a threat - "you show up at my door, I'll bench press you." I merely stated that if you were to seek me out and wanted to call me a liar to my face you should probably invest in health insurance. Hey, if you want to call that a threat so be it.

I've tried to make this easy for you to twist my words even more Jakey. If you need help of the spiritual kind - seek it dude. Otherwise, for all your blathering about people lying about you, myself included, I highly doubt any of it is false. I can only speak for myself and my experience with you, but you do have a hell of a gift for double-speak. Think about a career in sales.

Now, quit raining down on Christians. I am not one but, there are plenty of people I know that are and I find them good, decent people. I'd not include you in that designation. You just crazy - see I speak clearly. But, if you want to twist my words further, go for it. It's been rather amusing if nothing else.

I'll leave you with the last word... (-:

Thanks Jakey. Hope you get better.

@ Jake: It seems you've really been burned badly and have an awful taste in your mouth from most, if not all, of your previous encounters with Christians. I see where you're coming from regarding lying and hypocrisy and I do totally agree.

Most of my problems have been with the leadership - it seems that positions of power tend to attract the wrong kinds of people. But I have met many good individual Christians. Out here (in China) it can be something of a social disadvantage to be a Chinese Christian. Although it's not as bad as it's portrayed in the US media, attending private worship services is actually illegal. Ironically, I find some of the most sincere Christians out here (the hypocrites are probably at the Communist party meetings!)

You're probably very correct. In America it's convenient to be a Christian. And in the South, where I live, it's even a social asset. Especially to people seeking public office. I think a little harsh persecution would really weed out the hypocrites. ;)

Yeah, I know about that. I was born in Mississippi (where all my relatives are from) and grew up in Kentucky.

The challenge I find is to keep our eyes on the cross of Jesus Christ, and to serve according to our individual talents, gifts in the spirit, our ministry and our misson task - as we are each called. Only YaHWeH is infallible. If we fall because those we should be able to look up to fall, then our eyes are too firmly on men. Let us make sure we hear right, know who we are in Jesus Christ, and walk where He leads. For Bible Distribution - Africa Outreach - Misson Partners please visit www.elshaddai.givengain.org

I might lose some friends with this one, but oh well...

"Christianity Today" Magazine Advises Ministers to Deceive Their Congregations

I thought that was standard practice in all religion.

I think so too. That's why I abandoned the Christian religion a while back. Not the Christian faith, mind you. I still love Jesus. But the religion that's been built by human hands is something I can do without.